General Discussion

fishpockets

It can be open because the government refuses to take advice from people like the UN and say things like "it's not okay to discriminate against people based on race."

It took them until last year to decide that child porn might be a bad thing.

eyeless

I'm sorry, I'm one of those Asians who don't understand why painting your face black is an insult.

I heard about this before, but only because I'm pretty active on forums. But I don't understand it.

Mattthecat

That's what I mean. Most people anywhere will not know about that history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

It's basically indicating Afro-American stereotypes derived from the times of slavery and oppression

eiennoyorikobi

Even without the history, it's an appropriation of identity that reduces people to their skin color. Which is why I also shouldn't pull back my eyelids and joke that I'm Asian either.

Invader

I've already seen more people talking about them doing black face than about their KISS collab. The sad part is that even if they just meant it as a harmless joke, it's not a funny one. It's not some hilarious thing that's worth the trouble, it's just awkward.

Even without the slavery context , it's a way of mocking people, which is never cool unless the people you're mocking are OK with it.

I wouldn't put the blame on the girls though. They didn't come up with it, management did. They're just performers who do what they're told, even if it's a bad idea.

Bin82501

Black face is offensive because it dehumanizes a group of people--it suggests that a group of people are less than human. It's linked to slavery, rape, people being burned alive aka lynching, degradation, burned houses, and all sort of evil acts. I'm a bit shocked by this but I'm not entirely surprised because of the Momoka thing. Also, we're talking about a pretty homogenous nation that never had a Civil Rights Movement so of course racial sensitivity or insensitivity hasn't really been addressed properly. As far as this incident, it's bad obviously but what's worse is that it's not considered offensive--again not really their fault. It's clearly acceptable. What can you do? Is there anybody to reprimand them? Is there anyone there to tell them that it's racist? Of course not. We just hope that as world becomes more globalized, more people will be more socially aware.

eiennoyorikobi

^ You just said what I've been unsuccessfully trying to say.

Gakugeeeekai

It's kinda ridiculous that Japanese variety has utilized blackface in varying degrees countless times with pretty much no lasting repercussions. I guess the 'bubble' nature of their culture and entertainment lends itself to these sorts of incidents. I don't think they are being malicious, but this kind of 'innocent ignorance' can only be stretched so far when they do it time and time again. Even if they don't mean deliberate harm or insult, all their best intentions in the world doesn't help when people are (rightfully) insulted because it is associated with the harmful exploitation of African Americans during the slavery era.

And like others said already, it's not an indictment on the girls, but it's a ugly practice that continues to happen throughout Japanese media.

fishpockets

Bin82501 said:
As far as this incident, it's bad obviously but what's worse is that it's not considered offensive--again not really their fault. It's clearly acceptable. What can you do? Is there anybody to reprimand them? Is there anyone there to tell them that it's racist? Of course not. We just hope that as world becomes more globalized, more people will be more socially aware.

This is kind of what I'm talking about. Stuff like this and signs on businesses saying "Japanese only" are things that most of the world has realized are pretty messed up things to do. But even most of the people who have the power to raise awareness don't care and don't have the motivation to do so. It's easier to just wave your hands at the UN and whoever else than to mess with the status quo. there was a thing in the news today about one of Abe's advisors praising Apartheid which is just disgusting. "Our economy is f'd up so let's hire immigrants but keep them segregated."

It's maddening, and even condoning or ignoring "innocent" or casual racism like the blackface thing is just perpetuating it. Obviously the girls probably had no idea, but someone needs to be sat down and had some sense talked into them. with the state of global connectedness and social media, you can't expect stuff like this to be okay on an internet scale just because your own culture doesn't take issue with it. Especially when you're a country as important to world affairs as Japan is, even if their contribution is mostly on a business/financial/technological scale.

asan

Why would Music Fair care what people who can neither pay nor harm them think? If the viewers like it, it goes. So good luck convincing the population. They can't even read the general internet.

Owait, *we* can't even read the general internet, cause it's chinese, and who knows what their current policy on racism is.

eiennoyorikobi

^There's a series of threads on 2ch with over 1500 posts at this point about the blackface for whatever that's worth.

amataoshi

First of all, this is a collaboration with "Rats & star " (used to be "Chanels"). The front singing members of that group painted their face black because they 'respect' black musics and wanted to be like black singer/cholus group.
They were very popular back then.

Masayuki Suzuki, who is standing at the center, used be a leader of the group and sang Shibuya de Goji with A-rin at FNS and kissed by Reni.
Nobuyoshi Kuwano, standing right with no paint, is now known as a commedian rather than a musician. He is a regular member of Shimura Ken no Bakatono acting as Jii (preaching old guy). He doesn't paint because he was trampetter and didn't sing at the front row.

It's ridicurous to blame that Japanese don't know history without knowing the history of Chanels and Rats & Star background.
When Momoclo collaborate with other musicians, they cos-play as them. It's just the same thing as they mimic Alfee, they just mimic Rats & Star.

As for 2ch, of course they KNOW Chanels and Rats & Star history, and found it their chance to blame Momoclo with racism thing, which is easiest way to blame someone without being blamed.

atmospherium

It doesn't bother me at all, but I'm probably about as politically incorrect as a person can get, and I'm also not black. So I'll stay out of this and continue enjoying the music and entertainment of Momoclo as usual.

amataoshi

In Japan, there is strict avoidance now to show black (politically inncorrect, i know) people in the context of uncivilized or savage.
There was an anime "Jungle Kurobee" by Fujiko F. Fujio (famouse for Doraemon).

Now, they neber ever air this anime again even in old anime ranking thingy as if it didn't exist.
In commedy, they avoid mimic black people in this kind of context.

But in the context of music and entertainment, there is no way insulting intension in disguise as black. Because Japanese think they were and are one of front-line in music and dancing.
This is aired a fer years ago. Famouse voice actor Koichi Yamadera as Louis Armstrong.

fishpockets

amataoshi said:

It's ridicurous to blame that Japanese don't know history without knowing the history of Chanels and Rats & Star background.
When Momoclo collaborate with other musicians, they cos-play as them. It's just the same thing as they mimic Alfee, they just mimic Rats & Star.

I don't think western ignorance of a Japanese music group is quite the same thing as eastern ignorance (or indifference) of the fact that blackface is considered offensive pretty much everywhere else.

Invader

At the end of the day it's not going to affect their business in Japan and they only have a handful of international fans so they're not going to notice any controversy. Those of us reading english idols news and forums are the ones that are going to notice, because for people that don't follow them they've become THAT group.

I remember that for quite some time the first thing that appear on google when you searched them (after wikipedia, generasia and such) was an article saying they plagiarized the 5th dimension costumes. Even if that was a miscommunication thing and ended up being untrue, the article remained. In people's minds Momoclo was "the group that plagiarized a designer". Now what they'll be when people google them is even worse, and this time they actually did it...

Basically what I mean is that repercussions for them: zero. For me: some, because I'm ashamed as a fan. I'll try the whole pretending it didn't happen approach, at least I can think that it wasn't the girls fault, but I'll side-eye management.

Sorry for the long post, I get chatty when I wake up.

Mattthecat

I think it all depends on how something is presented (which we don't know not having seen the episode yet).
I somehow don't think though that it will feature a social-historical comment...
Cosplaying alone without thinking about the side effects is careless no matter what the background
And in 2015 there is no excuse for ignorance
Speaking of blatant racism in this case however is just as wrong. And we all know that 2ch isn't exactly a moral institution.

Now here's the next report on a cosplay that no one will mind :)

eiennoyorikobi

Invader said:
for people that don't follow them they've become THAT group.

This is a huge issue -- right after they'd started to take steps abroad, this happens. They're not ever going to be doing anything in America after this.

OM617

I'm American and I don't care if they dress in blackface. Yes, I cringed when I scrolled down to that picture, but I'm not making assumptions or judging them for it. Their culture is significantly different from ours.
Nobody here has said negative things about Momoclo frequently corssdressing or the hints at Shiorin possibly being a lesbian. Why? Because the homosexual culture is somewhat more "accepted" in the USA and Europe. Hell the British have a whole comedy culture built around straight people crossdressing.
Don't forget that Japan is nearly 100% Japanese so even seeing any other race is somewhat of a novelty to them. Imitating them is a sign of respect.

Now if they did something to make light of Japan's pre-WWII empire expansionism, THEN they could be in hot water world-wide.

Maka

There are some "They are ignorance of it, not really acceptable but tolerable" reaction on kotaku.

Most of them just said "because Japan" things.

Hope this will not blew up and become some massive thing

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